Fires, asteroids and chemical agents – new tools to keep us safer
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CORDIScovery podcast- Episode #46 - Fires, asteroids and chemical agents – new tools to keep us safer
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:34:02
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery. Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. We are living in a dynamic landscape of threats, but AI, innovative thinking and research funding are identifying some of the risks that are out there and how to tackle them. A better understanding of asteroids to improve our planetary defense systems.
00:00:34:04 - 00:01:02:18
Abigail Acton
Finding out what contributes to wild mega fires, To improve our risk assessments, and developing accurate, small sensors that can detect and identify liquid chemical hazards at low concentrations. Today's guests have used EU research funding to develop innovative approaches to improve safety. Today we will be hearing from Patrick Michel, who is a director of research at CNRS at the Cote d'Azur Observatory in Nice.
00:01:02:20 - 00:01:19:21
Abigail Acton
He is involved in space missions to asteroids for both scientific and planetary defense purposes. He is the principal investigator of the European Space Agency's Hera mission, which contributes to the first asteroid deflection test through NASA's Dart mission. Welcome, Patrick.
00:01:19:23 - 00:01:21:18
Patrick Michel
Hello. Very happy to be with you today.
00:01:21:21 - 00:01:42:07
Abigail Acton
And we're delighted you are here. Emilio Chuvieco is professor of geography, director of environmental ethics chair at the University of Alcalá in Spain, and an elected member of the Spanish Academy of Sciences. His main interest is the use of Earth observation data to monitor environmental problems, particularly forest fires. Welcome, Emilio.
00:01:42:09 - 00:01:45:09
Emilio Chuvieco
Hello. Thank you. Abigail. Nice to be here with you.
00:01:45:09 - 00:01:45:21
Abigail Acton
Yeah.
00:01:45:22 - 00:02:06:01
Abigail Acton
Good to have you. Tomas Rindzevicius is a senior researcher in the Department of Health Technology at the Technical University of Denmark. He focuses on the application of nanomaterials for sensing applications which can detect trace amounts of explosives, toxic industrial chemicals, as well as chemical warfare agents. Welcome, Tomas.
00:02:06:03 - 00:02:07:15
Tomas Rindzevicius
Hello. Pleased to be here.
00:02:07:19 - 00:02:27:17
Abigail Acton
Thank you for coming. So, Patrick, I'm going to turn to you first. Whether for planetary defense or resource missions, we need to improve our understanding of the nature of asteroids, which is where the NEO-MAPP project steps in. When we think of asteroids, we might think of planetary defenses and just what an impact meant for the dinosaurs. But ongoing research has more dimensions.
00:02:27:17 - 00:02:33:01
Abigail Acton
So can you tell us what drew you to study these small and hopefully distant bodies?
00:02:33:03 - 00:02:58:02
Patrick Michel
Yeah, absolutely. So in fact, asteroids are fascinating for many reasons. The first is that they are the remnants of the bricks that form the planets. They are now mostly between Mars and Jupiter in a belt called the asteroid belt. And contrary to planets, which are big and are like takes, they are very small. So in a planet, the material has been transformed chemically because it has been heated.
00:02:58:04 - 00:03:23:01
Patrick Michel
Like when we took the ingredients in a bowl and cook them to make a cake. And asteroids are small enough that they recall their original composition of the ingredients that formed the planet. So they are the best tracer of the solar system in history. And they even may have contributed to life on Earth. And they are also fascinating because they are, most of them very small, and therefore they have a very low gravity.
00:03:23:03 - 00:03:51:13
Patrick Michel
And their behavior is therefore very different than the behavior of the material on Earth in the strong Earth gravity. And this is a really challenging. And, you know, I love challenges. That's why I study them. Because and we need to study them because this is a way to better understand how we can prevent an asteroid impact. If we want to deflect an asteroid, we need to understand its response to the impact and also to advance in our knowledge of the solar system history.
00:03:51:15 - 00:04:24:23
Patrick Michel
And the challenge is really to understand how they respond to an external action. Previous missions showed us their incredible diversity. Each time we saw an image of a new asteroid, we jumped on our seats because they are not at all what we were expecting, which show that we are still not really understanding them well, and therefore these are the challenge we have to to, to tackle, which is how to better understand how they respond to an external action in order to deflect it, or simply to understand how they behave.
00:04:24:24 - 00:04:27:08
Patrick Michel
Again, the process they experienced over the lifetime.
00:04:27:12 - 00:04:46:02
Abigail Acton
Yeah that's wonderful. Thank you. Super explanation. And also, of course, the composition is fascinating too. Lovely. So first of all, perhaps you could tell us why it was called NEO-MAPP. Let's get that out of the way and then maybe can you tell us what work the project did to better understand the character, the nature, the movement, the response to external stimuli of the asteroids?
00:04:46:05 - 00:05:18:10
Patrick Michel
Yeah. So our project is called NEO-MAPP for Near Earth Object Modelling and Payloads for Protection, because in fact, in the project we address two domain. One is to make, great advances in our capabilities, in particular to model better how they respond to an impact, for instance, or to another external action. And the other area is to advance in a technology development and data analysis tool for space missions to asteroids so that we can better analyze the data.
00:05:18:10 - 00:05:46:24
Patrick Michel
That provide the knowledge and also are used to validate the numerical models at the real scale. And one of the challenges, for instance, was to, really understand how they respond to an impact, because in 2019, just before we started the project, we had a Japanese mission called Hayabusa2 that made a small impact on an asteroid. And the crater that was produced by this impact was much larger than the one we predicted with our impact models.
00:05:47:01 - 00:05:55:08
Abigail Acton
Can you give us some numbers? So, I mean, for example, when you say a small impact on a large crater going, I actually know the answer to this, which is, well, I know the listeners are going to love it. Go on, tell us how small, how big?
00:05:55:09 - 00:06:19:22
Patrick Michel
Yeah, absolutely. So in fact the projectile was two kilogram launched at two km per second, and we expected a crater of two meters. And inside the crater was 17, almost 20m in size. So ten times more. So we were completely wrong. And this is where we realized that our models are not able to capture correctly a process under the low gravity environment of an asteroid.
00:06:19:22 - 00:06:40:21
Patrick Michel
In particular, you know, when you make a crater on Earth, the event takes about a few seconds to take place. In low gravity, everything is slower, meaning that when you make a crater it takes minutes to hours to develop. And this is very hard to capture in numerical model. So thanks to this project, we could develop new approaches to tackle this problem.
00:06:40:23 - 00:07:03:01
Patrick Michel
And we were eventually able to reproduce the crater. Another area was to be able to develop technology that allows us to land on a smaller asteroid because, you know, actually they are very small. They have a small attraction. So if you learn too quickly, you may bounce and go away like, you know, on an asteroid. If I get excited on my chair or like, when I'm speaking with you, I'm already in orbit.
00:07:03:02 - 00:07:05:22
Patrick Michel
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they are very low. They don't attract well.
00:07:05:22 - 00:07:07:18
Abigail Acton
There's nothing holding you there.
00:07:07:19 - 00:07:26:05
Patrick Michel
Exactly. So we have to develop technologies at the lowest to come slowly and make sure we stay on the surface. And all these are very challenging. And it's exciting because we are having a project, different communities working together. Engineers from industries and scientists. And it's always, you know, a good thing to to work together.
00:07:26:07 - 00:07:43:20
Abigail Acton
Yeah, I know it sounds like an excellent melting pot. And I remember I think in a previous conversation we had, you were mentioning something about the images of an asteroid looking misleading, basically leading you to believe that there were certain characteristics that in reality were completely different. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? Because I love that story.
00:07:43:21 - 00:08:14:06
Patrick Michel
Yeah. And in fact the thing is, you know, the engineers, they have to start with assumptions in order to define the operation strategy when you get to an asteroid, and in fact, we don't know much about them because from the Earth we just received a faint light that comes from their surface. So, for instance, when we did the past missions like Hayabusa2 by the Japanese agency and the OSIRIS-REx by NASA, we told the engineers, you know, when we we land on the target asteroid, don't worry, we'll have large areas without borders.
00:08:14:08 - 00:08:30:19
Patrick Michel
And in fact, when we arrived, there were boulders everywhere. So this is funny because when it happens, the scientists are super excited because we like to be wrong. We are always happy, by the way, because when we are wrong, we have new challenges. And when we were right, we predicted correctly, right?
00:08:30:21 - 00:08:31:21
Abigail Acton
Yeah. Perfect win win.
00:08:32:02 - 00:08:51:16
Patrick Michel
Exactly. But the engineers looked at us and say, hey guys, you gave us wrong assumption. Now how are we going to land with so many boulders? So this is interesting because they have to be very flexible and be able to revise entirely their strategy of operations when they get to these new worlds, because each time it is a surprise.
00:08:51:16 - 00:08:53:12
Abigail Acton
In real time. Yeah. And what did you find with the boulders?
00:08:53:14 - 00:09:18:07
Patrick Michel
So in fact, what we found is that there are no basically no areas to land which are larger than ten meters wide. We said we would find spaces of 50m. So can you imagine that they had to command the spacecraft at 300,000,000km from Earth, so 1000 times the distance between the Earth and the moon, in order to be able to land in a ten meter space, which is absolutely incredible.
00:09:18:09 - 00:09:26:08
Abigail Acton
Yeah. No, it's absolutely amazing. And I'm going to steal your punchline. If I remember correctly, the boulders weren't boulders.
00:09:26:10 - 00:09:50:22
Patrick Michel
Yeah, exactly. So this is the thing, is that the response of these bodies to an external action cannot be predicted well, so far just by images, because with these missions, we stayed about two years around an asteroid. We have a lot of images, we see many boulders. And yet when we touch them, we see no reaction. Like, like like if we go in a in a fluid or in a collision less sense.
00:09:50:22 - 00:09:52:02
Abigail Acton
Or like, like mist.
00:09:52:08 - 00:10:11:13
Patrick Michel
Exactly. Like mist. Exactly. And this we could not really, predicted just from images. So the conclusion and the lessons learned is that at least for now, we need to have a direct interaction in order to determine the mechanical response of an asteroid, which is a very important for deflection, for instance.
00:10:11:13 - 00:10:13:20
Abigail Acton
If we have a need it for planetary defense.
00:10:13:23 - 00:10:14:16
Patrick Michel
Absolutely.
00:10:14:19 - 00:10:25:19
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Well, this is all really fascinating. Thank you so much for explaining it so clearly. And how will some of the innovations and some of the findings of your project be applied in forthcoming missions? Patrick.
00:10:25:20 - 00:10:46:09
Patrick Michel
Yeah, in fact, we are very lucky because we can immediately apply what we did in this project because we already used it for the DART mission that impacted on an asteroid. And now we launched the HERA mission by the European Space Agency that is going to reach this asteroid again in 2026. And all the tools we developed, some of the instruments are onboard this mission.
00:10:46:11 - 00:11:15:20
Patrick Michel
So we are really in the way of, of using them. In particular, there was a flyby of Mars recently on March 12th, and all the data we get from these images of Mars and its moon, Deimos, will be using our analysis tools. And then we have another mission in development thanks to this project, which is called the RAMSES mission, still at the European Space Agency, the space safety program that targets and asteroid called Apophis, that will come very close to the Earth with no danger at all, but just a great opportunity.
00:11:16:01 - 00:11:21:16
Patrick Michel
On Friday, April the 13th, 2029. And we are going to visit that.
00:11:21:18 - 00:11:36:06
Abigail Acton
Lovely, lovely Friday the 13th. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we'll hold you to what you just said about it being no danger at all. I'm sure all the calculations show that. Thank you so much, Patrick. That was beautifully explained. Wonderful. Does anyone have any questions for Patrick? Yes. Tomas.
00:11:36:11 - 00:11:49:11
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yeah. Thank you. So I'm outside the field, Patrick. And I'm sorry if I'm being, like, too simplistic. I'm just curious, do we have now any viable technology or system to actually deflect asteroids?
00:11:49:17 - 00:12:10:11
Patrick Michel
Yeah, absolutely. We have actually the technology that was demonstrated in real with a DART mission that showed that we are able to basically send a spacecraft at a very high speed, 60km per second on an asteroid for which we only know the size initially and not even the shape autonomously, so that it eats it. And that was successful.
00:12:10:16 - 00:12:35:20
Patrick Michel
The Dart spacecraft, 580kg, impacted at six kilometers per second a very small asteroid, only 150 meter in size successfully. And the goal of the Hera mission is to be the sort of a detective that go back to the impact scene in order to tell us what exactly happened, but at least the technology to hit at high speed and asteroid was demonstrated.
00:12:35:22 - 00:12:49:16
Patrick Michel
Of course, we need to develop other technology because one technique may be efficient for some cases. Other techniques may be more efficient in other cases. So it's just a starting point. But it's already very nice that the first test was successful.
00:12:49:18 - 00:13:14:22
Abigail Acton
Yeah. It's wonderful. It's like cosmic billiard balls. Cosmic snooker. Excellent. I'm always amazed by the precision. I just find that phenomenal. As someone who has problems reverse parking into a garage, I'm really impressed by the precision. Okay, I'm going to turn to Emilio now. Emilio, wildfires have been in the news recently, and occurrences look likely to rise given changes in land use and climate.
00:13:14:24 - 00:13:35:06
Abigail Acton
The FirEUrisk Project brought together researchers, planners and responders to find a way to assess and manage the risk of mega fires. So we know that climate change is going to make for more extreme weather patterns. Can you tell us a little bit about what the experts are thinking regarding the risk of what you call mega fires going forward, please, Emilio?
00:13:35:08 - 00:14:04:23
Emilio Chuvieco
Well, yeah, we have been observing in the last years that, the total burn area is not increasing globally, but the stream fires are increasing, and it's obviously related to the climatic and socioeconomic changes that we are observing, particularly the those factors that lead to extreme fire behavior and heat waves, strong winds, very dry vegetation and this is why we are finding accidents.
00:14:05:00 - 00:14:10:18
Emilio Chuvieco
I mean, asphalt is that are considered really important in terms of socially, ecologically impacts.
00:14:10:20 - 00:14:20:04
Abigail Acton
Yeah. And I mean, we can clearly understand the impact of the climate. When you talk about socio economic factors, what are you considering there, when it comes to risk?
00:14:20:04 - 00:14:49:00
Emilio Chuvieco
Well, the changes seen in land use, particularly in rural areas, have an important impact on fires because usually they are populations and working on the, the rural areas and doing for instance, extensive grazing. And nowadays most of these people are aging. Some there is having a strong abandon, on areas, particularly in Europe and therefore the landscape tend to be more homogeneous.
00:14:49:00 - 00:14:54:07
Emilio Chuvieco
And whenever you have a fire, they tend to propagate much more continuously than in the past.
00:14:54:10 - 00:15:10:08
Abigail Acton
Oh yeah. That's interesting. Right. Okay. Yes. I wasn't thinking of that when we were thinking of land use. I suppose I was imagining something else, but I see what you mean. People aren't husbanding the natural resources as they used to, and it's changing the profile. Yeah, I get you. Super. Okay, so what did FirEUrisk want to do?
00:15:10:11 - 00:15:42:12
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, we have a very large consortium of very different experts coming from different countries. And we want to analyze fire risk in a integrated way, considering not just meteorological data, which is what is mostly common by coring a fire risk assessment system, but also other aspects and related to vegetation, as I said, characteristics, but also human activities, ecological, values, ecosystems, services, people preparedness for for fire.
00:15:42:15 - 00:16:08:08
Emilio Chuvieco
So we aim to develop a holistic analysis or integrated analysis of fire risk conditions in different European areas. Usually fires were mostly a mediterranean problem, but nowadays we face also, fire issues in Central Europe and northern Europe. And also we aim to better understand how fire trends would evolve in the future, considering, again, climatic and socioeconomic changes.
00:16:08:13 - 00:16:17:24
Abigail Acton
Wonderful, excellent. And I know that you've been using Earth observation data as well to give you some clearer ideas. What is this observation data showing you? What what what does that used for?
00:16:18:01 - 00:16:48:24
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, well actually that's my main specialty. But we what we do is in doing a periodic observation of fuel conditions, in terms of both fuel abundance, I mean, the amount of vegetation that is able to be burned but also the moisture content, which is very important in terms of probability and also behavior. Also, we use satellite data to improve, let's say, updates, our current maps of wildland urban interfaces.
00:16:49:01 - 00:16:52:09
Emilio Chuvieco
I mean, those are the most important in terms of fire risk.
00:16:52:15 - 00:17:04:17
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Okay. So when you say, the fuel abundance, I get, you can tell from the satellite imagery what's growing there. But what did you mean about moisture content? How is satellite imagery telling you about the moisture of those plants? Down. Down on the earth?
00:17:04:22 - 00:17:22:07
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, well, actually, water, absorbs part of the electromagnetic radiation that comes from the sun. And it's reflected to the satellite also in thermal contrast between air and surface temperature is an indicator of of air moisture content and and water stress.
00:17:22:12 - 00:17:43:03
Abigail Acton
Yeah. So, so you can see where things are drying out and therefore obviously becoming more susceptible. And, so wonderful. This is the kind of data you collected and the people that were involved in that, but what were you actually, what tools did you develop? Did you develop anything that actually can be useful in, in keeping people safer and analyzing the, the, the risk of potential fires now?
00:17:43:05 - 00:17:45:02
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, we hope so. Of course.
00:17:45:04 - 00:17:46:21
Abigail Acton
Yeah.
00:17:46:23 - 00:18:21:07
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah. Very interesting to to help society to reduce the problems of fires. Now keep in mind that we have extreme fires in the last year with a lot of casualties. Recently California, also Hawaii, Chile, etc where more than a hundred people and died as a result of fires. So we aim to develop a more holistic and integrated approach to risk, to fire risk, considering different conditions that are not very commonly considered in the current fire assessment systems, particularly the vulnerability aspect, the exploitation of humans to fire.
00:18:21:08 - 00:18:50:20
Emilio Chuvieco
And also we aim to better understand how these etreme fires propagate, how we people can be better aware of their risk and related to fire. I think it's important to notice that in many fire prone areas, local citizens are not very aware of what is to do in case of having fire. I remember in, in Japan, I visited Japan a few years ago and everybody knows what to do in case of earthquake, but that's not the case in fire prone areas in the Mediterranean.
00:18:50:20 - 00:18:52:03
Emilio Chuvieco
That's part of the issue.
00:18:52:05 - 00:18:52:12
Abigail Acton
Right?
00:18:52:16 - 00:19:06:24
Emilio Chuvieco
For instance, in 2017, more than 60 people died trying to escape fire. Probably if they would have stayed in their places, they would be much less casualties. So I think we continue to inform also the population what to do in case.
00:19:06:24 - 00:19:17:17
Abigail Acton
Right. And do you have have you developed any kind of early warning tools or any mechanisms to assist, those who must perhaps launch evacuations or any tools at all?
00:19:17:19 - 00:19:51:22
Emilio Chuvieco
Well, just as I said, most of the current systems are based on meteorological data, which obviously are very important in terms of fire, particularly when, with humidity and in temperature models, so we we have added to those aspects other social aspect, ecological ecosystem services etc, so we tend to have a more comprehensive evaluation of risk that would facilitate a, better, more objective criteria in terms of a fire suppression.
00:19:51:24 - 00:19:59:13
Emilio Chuvieco
And we have put more emphasis on prevention than suppression, which has traditionally lead the the fire risk operational system.
00:19:59:13 - 00:20:10:14
Abigail Acton
Because I know you've also been considering sort of traditional use of the land. And of course, fires have always been with us. So I like this idea that you're not actually focusing that much on suppression, but it's more about management of risk, isn't it?
00:20:10:16 - 00:20:33:06
Emilio Chuvieco
Yes, yes. Actually, fire is a natural process that a lot of vegetation that is adapted to fire. And I think we need to live with fires and trying to use fires in a more efficient way, avoiding the negative impacts, but not suppression at all, because at the end of the day, when you suppresses more fires, you make large ones, in, in a longer period.
00:20:33:06 - 00:20:36:16
Emilio Chuvieco
And therefore they could be more extreme than they used to.
00:20:36:18 - 00:20:57:15
Abigail Acton
Okay. That's excellent. Thank you. Very very clear. Okay. Super. So a better, broader, more accurate picture that gives the people who are charged with keeping people safe a clearer idea of what the risks are and, and how to get out of a situation if it evolves. Super. Thank you so much. Does anyone have any questions at all? Yes.
00:20:57:15 - 00:20:58:24
Abigail Acton
Patrick, please.
00:20:59:01 - 00:21:11:06
Patrick Michel
Yeah I mean this is very interesting. I have a question about. So you look at the conditions, that may trigger fire, but are the fires mostly voluntary or accidents?
00:21:11:06 - 00:21:36:15
Emilio Chuvieco
Both actually. I think human aspects are very important in fighting nation and and propagation. We humans have bought a factor, a factor of fire occurrence, but also they are affected by fires, of course. So in Europe, for instance, I would say 90% of the fires are human caused and lighting is also an important issue. Sometimes lighting creates larger fires because they occur in remote locations.
00:21:36:17 - 00:22:05:15
Emilio Chuvieco
But fire ignited by humans is also a very important aspect. Not just say obviously arson incident which is there, but mostly accidents and fires that tend to manage, say grass or traps, and therefore they escape out of control and became large events. So there's a really wide diversity of factors related to fire. And I think a sociological analysis of fires, it's also something that has not been previously much.
00:22:05:16 - 00:22:30:13
Abigail Acton
And that's what your project's changing. You're looking at stuff that goes just beyond the weather conditions. Right. Super. Well, thank you for explaining that so clearly. And it sounds very much like your work is needed, because I don't think the situation is going to get better. Thank you. Tomas, turning to you, first, detection and unequivocal identification of chemical hazards at low concentrations in gas and in liquid phase in multiple environments.
00:22:30:15 - 00:22:47:02
Abigail Acton
The SERSing project has developed a device to help first responders deal with chemical threats. So, Tomas, can you tell us a little bit about surface enhanced Raman spectroscopy? Spectroscopy? I did it the second time. What is it and how does it work?
00:22:47:04 - 00:23:12:09
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yes. Okay. So maybe it's simply with split sort of service enhanced spectroscopy into parts for simplicity. So let's begin with the Raman spectroscopy. So many people have heard this before. Raman spectroscopy is is a well known actually, quite old analytical technique that is essentially used to characterize and identify, like analysis, unknown material. Right.
00:23:12:09 - 00:23:35:20
Tomas Rindzevicius
That's why is so useful in forensic science, material science and basically in many, many disciplines, now the way it works is typically you have a laser, you shine laser like our case, some unknown molecules, and then the molecules scatter light. And then molecules are a little bit like people in the sense, you know, we have our fingerprints to identify who we are.
00:23:35:22 - 00:23:55:23
Tomas Rindzevicius
And molecules have what we call a vibrational spectral fingerprint. This is how we identify the molecule. So, you know, so let's say if I have a, say a pill of aspirin, I can use a Raman spectrometer to tell me that, yes, this is indeed aspirin. I just looked at its spectral fingerprints, and I can confirm this is aspirin.
00:23:56:00 - 00:24:18:19
Tomas Rindzevicius
This is not, you know, say, paracetamol or something else. Right. So that's the sort of fragment spectroscopy part. So now imagine we have a slightly more challenging situation. So imagine I have a glass of water and I will take from my previous example just a tiny bit of aspirin. And I add to this glass water. And as it desolves in the glass of water.
00:24:18:19 - 00:24:38:08
Tomas Rindzevicius
Now we have a situation what we call trace amounts of aspirin. Now if I take a Raman spectrometer and sort of try to measure it, it would tell me, well, I see water and like, are you sure? I've just had a tiny amount of aspirin in. Yeah, I just see water. So you see this is a limitation of the spectrometer .
00:24:38:10 - 00:25:00:17
Tomas Rindzevicius
This is where surface enhanced part comes in. This is where we use surface just like in the name. To enhance the Raman signal. Sort of boosting it's many orders of magnitude. This is where we sort of able to like I think like a hollow pillowy like a curtain, this water aside and sort of look, look deep inside, see what else is hiding.
00:25:00:21 - 00:25:08:07
Tomas Rindzevicius
And that's the part. So this enhanced Raman spectroscopy. So we're able to look find trace amounts of compound.
00:25:08:10 - 00:25:21:18
Abigail Acton
Yeah that's beautifully explained. Thank you so much. Excellent explanation. Now how did you feel when you realized how powerfully the boosting factor was and how tiny, tiny amounts of trace was actually showing up? It must have been quite exciting when you first realized that.
00:25:21:24 - 00:25:42:19
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yes, yes, it was, you know, we're always very excited to be able to detect as small amounts of possible, even though during the project, we've realized that the real life samples, it knows, just like in my example, glass of water plus aspirin, like typically imagine you have a way more complicated cases. You have a glass of wine.
00:25:42:21 - 00:26:08:22
Tomas Rindzevicius
Okay, now we just have so many of different types of molecules in there. And if you were measuring so, you know, each of them sending their fingerprints. So you're sort of overwhelmed with these fingerprints. Well now this is where AI comes in to arena. You know, this is where we now surprisingly able to train AI to quickly sort these fingerprints and sort of group them together and we can tell them what we are interested to find.
00:26:08:22 - 00:26:14:11
Tomas Rindzevicius
And they will and AI will help us to quickly pinpoint the molecules that we actually want to find.
00:26:14:13 - 00:26:34:18
Abigail Acton
Brilliant, brilliant. And I mean, yes, all of this power, but also what I think is thrilling about your project is that you managed to develop a small, lightweight, very compact device that could be held by first responders. So all of this power, but in a compact little device. Can you tell me more about the actual device that the project developed?
00:26:34:21 - 00:27:21:06
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yes. So, you know, handheld Raman spectrometers, are actually quite common. So first responders do use them in their everyday work, but not the surface enhanced part. It's that we added, together with the artificial intelligence and deep learning algorithms so that the, our tiny sort of prototype had basically, you know, big red bottom. And the first I had to just put a sample, press that red button, and then it would analyze and on the screen you would get sort of an answer and it was all possible because we had artificial intelligence basically looking like a detective through all these complex matrix, you know, real life samples that have many types of different molecules.
00:27:21:11 - 00:27:36:01
Tomas Rindzevicius
So as a detective, it's finds what we look for, and then you get the answer on your screen. And we were able to actually shrink it quite significantly, connect to cloud and add some more interesting features.
00:27:36:03 - 00:27:44:23
Abigail Acton
And and the benefit of collecting it to the cloud was what, so that the data could get back to people who would then be responsible for deciding what what to do with the environment in that context.
00:27:45:00 - 00:28:17:08
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yeah, I mean exactly. So imagine you, you're measuring, say, fluid on a field. Well, then maybe you need the experts sitting somewhere else to actually look at the data. Maybe you don't rest completely your AI algorithms here. Or maybe you say you want to measure gas and the way that it's spreading in the field. So maybe you would like a data from sensors in different locations, you know, to come to a centralized place where people could visualize on the map how the, the, the cloud is spread.
00:28:17:12 - 00:28:28:12
Abigail Acton
Okay. And I know that one of the breakthroughs for you, a major milestone was the detection of, Novichok in various mixtures. Yeah. So, for example, can you tell me a little bit more about that? How precisely were you able to measure that.
00:28:28:17 - 00:28:54:17
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yeah, this is interesting story. You know, back in 2018 when we sort of wrote this, this artificial intelligence for spectroscopy, you could hear just whispers and definitely you couldn't hear much about, you know, warfare. We could only imagine potentially terrorist attacks. But then as time progressed and because of the war in Ukraine, we thought that it would be really relevant to test the technology, put it to a real test.
00:28:54:23 - 00:29:17:06
Tomas Rindzevicius
And also we tried to conflict the scenario that someone you know wants to poison or add Novichok to liquids that people use in everyday life, say, you know, spray or mouthwash or anything that you use on every day. And they thought, okay, this would be a good test. We take our own chalk, we add to it, and we see and we were a little bit skeptical.
00:29:17:08 - 00:29:44:07
Tomas Rindzevicius
We thought that maybe we see, we were over optimistic. But actually this is where artificial intelligence really surprised us. It was incredibly fast and really better than all, previously used methods. So I'm really, optimistic about the future. So we're able to detect, for example, Novichok in nasal spray, several orders of mind lower than it's possible with conventional serum spectroscopy.
00:29:44:09 - 00:29:59:20
Abigail Acton
Right. Excellent. Okay. Super. Thank you. Good technology to have, final question for you, Tomas. Can you see a way that your technology could be used in the future? Are there other developments as AI gets stronger and you bring the two together? What what do you see for the future?
00:29:59:22 - 00:30:23:15
Tomas Rindzevicius
Well, I mean, I can't imagine now, you know, AI being outside the picture in spectroscopy because it performs so well. I, I think we definitely going to see AI entering all types of analytical tools. And then I want to talk about source. Definitely. And as Raman in his field, you know develops the tools industry are getting smaller, cheaper, better.
00:30:23:17 - 00:30:47:03
Tomas Rindzevicius
Now we have AI you know working for us this very powerful tool that can analyze the data quickly and help us to sort out all these components, you know, in the real life fluids. I think that you will see in the future definitely tools that AI will be embedded in it without any question. Yeah. And maybe even inside your mobile one day.
00:30:47:03 - 00:30:47:13
Tomas Rindzevicius
Right.
00:30:47:13 - 00:30:59:04
Abigail Acton
Well. So ubiquitous. Well, yeah. No, I mean, we have to think blue sky, don't we? Yeah. Yes. Excellent. Thank you so much. So basically, the limit is only our imagination. Does anyone have any questions for Tomas? Yes. Patrick, please.
00:30:59:08 - 00:31:21:24
Patrick Michel
Yeah, actually a comment, where this could be very useful. So we actually have a raman spectrometer onboard a rover called Idefix developed by the KNESS and the French space Agency and the Geological Space Agency that would be onboard the next mission by the Japanese space agency that is going to take a sample of Phobos, one of the moons of Mars, to return it to Earth.
00:31:21:24 - 00:31:35:15
Patrick Michel
And before doing so, they will deploy a rover on the surface of Phobos. The rover will rove very slowly, and it has a Raman spectrometer to do elemental analysis of the surface of Phobos. So this is where I think, you know, very powerful.
00:31:35:15 - 00:31:39:17
Tomas Rindzevicius
Thank you very much. Oh, this is so nice to hear, Patrick. Thank you.
00:31:39:19 - 00:31:57:07
Abigail Acton
Yeah. Did you see the reinforcement of the direction you're going in, Tomas. But also Patrick, it sounds like his equipment is more sophisticated than the usual ones. So you said basic analysis. You know, you never know. Tomas might actually be able to help you with something a little bit more than basic. Anyway, this is what's so wonderful about CORDIScovery.
00:31:57:07 - 00:32:00:10
Abigail Acton
It's the synergies. Yes. Emilio, you have a question?
00:32:00:12 - 00:32:19:14
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, well, I have a general comment about the use of artificial intelligence. Sometimes I have the impression that you say is being used as a tool to a classified data, but sometimes the scientific basis to understand properly the problem is not that clear. What is your impression on that?
00:32:19:16 - 00:32:43:10
Tomas Rindzevicius
Well, I think, Emilio you are right on the money here. I mean when. So the algorithms in this project were developed by D2 computer technological university of Denmark. And actually, you're right, often when we ask them why the decision in certain cases by AI is made, the researchers actually say, we're not sure, we have to look into it.
00:32:43:10 - 00:33:11:11
Tomas Rindzevicius
We have to dig deeper. So actually, you're right. We see that it works. But actually, why in many cases it's not really clear. Even experts have to, you know, launch a special analysis activities to to find out why certain decisions were made, why it was classified, you know, as this type or that type. Because when you look at the spectrum, it's not obvious why the decision was made.
00:33:11:16 - 00:33:30:06
Abigail Acton
Like like all science, it raises more questions than it answered. On to the next chapter. And the next chapter. Okay. Listen, thank you so much. The three of you. That was fascinating. And and, clearly the the technological advances you're all coming up with are, are helping us to remain safer, for which many thanks.
00:33:30:12 - 00:33:32:24
Tomas Rindzevicius
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
00:33:32:24 - 00:33:33:23
Patrick Michel
Thank you so much, all of you.
00:33:33:23 - 00:33:35:04
Emilio Chuvieco
Thank you. Right. Take care.
00:33:35:04 - 00:33:36:18
Tomas Rindzevicius
Bye bye. Bye bye.
00:33:36:20 - 00:33:58:09
Abigail Acton
Bye bye. If you've enjoyed this podcast, follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and check out the podcast homepage on the Cordis website. Subscribe to make sure that the hottest research and EU funded science isn't passing you by. If you've enjoyed it, spread the word. We've talked about how censors can determine the sex and age of a flying mosquito.
00:33:58:11 - 00:34:18:03
Abigail Acton
In the last 45 episodes, there will be something there to tweak your curiosity. The Cordis website will give you insights into the results of projects funded by the horizon 2020 and Horizon Europe programs that are working in this area. From motorbikes to motor neurons, there's something there for you. Maybe you're involved in a project or would like to apply for funding.
00:34:18:04 - 00:34:37:21
Abigail Acton
Take a look at what others are doing in your domain. So come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick. We're always happy to hear from you. Drop us a line editorial@cordis.europa.eu. Until next time
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:34:02
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery. Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. We are living in a dynamic landscape of threats, but AI, innovative thinking and research funding are identifying some of the risks that are out there and how to tackle them. A better understanding of asteroids to improve our planetary defense systems.
00:00:34:04 - 00:01:02:18
Abigail Acton
Finding out what contributes to wild mega fires, To improve our risk assessments, and developing accurate, small sensors that can detect and identify liquid chemical hazards at low concentrations. Today's guests have used EU research funding to develop innovative approaches to improve safety. Today we will be hearing from Patrick Michel, who is a director of research at CNRS at the Cote d'Azur Observatory in Nice.
00:01:02:20 - 00:01:19:21
Abigail Acton
He is involved in space missions to asteroids for both scientific and planetary defense purposes. He is the principal investigator of the European Space Agency's Hera mission, which contributes to the first asteroid deflection test through NASA's Dart mission. Welcome, Patrick.
00:01:19:23 - 00:01:21:18
Patrick Michel
Hello. Very happy to be with you today.
00:01:21:21 - 00:01:42:07
Abigail Acton
And we're delighted you are here. Emilio Chuvieco is professor of geography, director of environmental ethics chair at the University of Alcalá in Spain, and an elected member of the Spanish Academy of Sciences. His main interest is the use of Earth observation data to monitor environmental problems, particularly forest fires. Welcome, Emilio.
00:01:42:09 - 00:01:45:09
Emilio Chuvieco
Hello. Thank you. Abigail. Nice to be here with you.
00:01:45:09 - 00:01:45:21
Abigail Acton
Yeah.
00:01:45:22 - 00:02:06:01
Abigail Acton
Good to have you. Tomas Rindzevicius is a senior researcher in the Department of Health Technology at the Technical University of Denmark. He focuses on the application of nanomaterials for sensing applications which can detect trace amounts of explosives, toxic industrial chemicals, as well as chemical warfare agents. Welcome, Tomas.
00:02:06:03 - 00:02:07:15
Tomas Rindzevicius
Hello. Pleased to be here.
00:02:07:19 - 00:02:27:17
Abigail Acton
Thank you for coming. So, Patrick, I'm going to turn to you first. Whether for planetary defense or resource missions, we need to improve our understanding of the nature of asteroids, which is where the NEO-MAPP project steps in. When we think of asteroids, we might think of planetary defenses and just what an impact meant for the dinosaurs. But ongoing research has more dimensions.
00:02:27:17 - 00:02:33:01
Abigail Acton
So can you tell us what drew you to study these small and hopefully distant bodies?
00:02:33:03 - 00:02:58:02
Patrick Michel
Yeah, absolutely. So in fact, asteroids are fascinating for many reasons. The first is that they are the remnants of the bricks that form the planets. They are now mostly between Mars and Jupiter in a belt called the asteroid belt. And contrary to planets, which are big and are like takes, they are very small. So in a planet, the material has been transformed chemically because it has been heated.
00:02:58:04 - 00:03:23:01
Patrick Michel
Like when we took the ingredients in a bowl and cook them to make a cake. And asteroids are small enough that they recall their original composition of the ingredients that formed the planet. So they are the best tracer of the solar system in history. And they even may have contributed to life on Earth. And they are also fascinating because they are, most of them very small, and therefore they have a very low gravity.
00:03:23:03 - 00:03:51:13
Patrick Michel
And their behavior is therefore very different than the behavior of the material on Earth in the strong Earth gravity. And this is a really challenging. And, you know, I love challenges. That's why I study them. Because and we need to study them because this is a way to better understand how we can prevent an asteroid impact. If we want to deflect an asteroid, we need to understand its response to the impact and also to advance in our knowledge of the solar system history.
00:03:51:15 - 00:04:24:23
Patrick Michel
And the challenge is really to understand how they respond to an external action. Previous missions showed us their incredible diversity. Each time we saw an image of a new asteroid, we jumped on our seats because they are not at all what we were expecting, which show that we are still not really understanding them well, and therefore these are the challenge we have to to, to tackle, which is how to better understand how they respond to an external action in order to deflect it, or simply to understand how they behave.
00:04:24:24 - 00:04:27:08
Patrick Michel
Again, the process they experienced over the lifetime.
00:04:27:12 - 00:04:46:02
Abigail Acton
Yeah that's wonderful. Thank you. Super explanation. And also, of course, the composition is fascinating too. Lovely. So first of all, perhaps you could tell us why it was called NEO-MAPP. Let's get that out of the way and then maybe can you tell us what work the project did to better understand the character, the nature, the movement, the response to external stimuli of the asteroids?
00:04:46:05 - 00:05:18:10
Patrick Michel
Yeah. So our project is called NEO-MAPP for Near Earth Object Modelling and Payloads for Protection, because in fact, in the project we address two domain. One is to make, great advances in our capabilities, in particular to model better how they respond to an impact, for instance, or to another external action. And the other area is to advance in a technology development and data analysis tool for space missions to asteroids so that we can better analyze the data.
00:05:18:10 - 00:05:46:24
Patrick Michel
That provide the knowledge and also are used to validate the numerical models at the real scale. And one of the challenges, for instance, was to, really understand how they respond to an impact, because in 2019, just before we started the project, we had a Japanese mission called Hayabusa2 that made a small impact on an asteroid. And the crater that was produced by this impact was much larger than the one we predicted with our impact models.
00:05:47:01 - 00:05:55:08
Abigail Acton
Can you give us some numbers? So, I mean, for example, when you say a small impact on a large crater going, I actually know the answer to this, which is, well, I know the listeners are going to love it. Go on, tell us how small, how big?
00:05:55:09 - 00:06:19:22
Patrick Michel
Yeah, absolutely. So in fact the projectile was two kilogram launched at two km per second, and we expected a crater of two meters. And inside the crater was 17, almost 20m in size. So ten times more. So we were completely wrong. And this is where we realized that our models are not able to capture correctly a process under the low gravity environment of an asteroid.
00:06:19:22 - 00:06:40:21
Patrick Michel
In particular, you know, when you make a crater on Earth, the event takes about a few seconds to take place. In low gravity, everything is slower, meaning that when you make a crater it takes minutes to hours to develop. And this is very hard to capture in numerical model. So thanks to this project, we could develop new approaches to tackle this problem.
00:06:40:23 - 00:07:03:01
Patrick Michel
And we were eventually able to reproduce the crater. Another area was to be able to develop technology that allows us to land on a smaller asteroid because, you know, actually they are very small. They have a small attraction. So if you learn too quickly, you may bounce and go away like, you know, on an asteroid. If I get excited on my chair or like, when I'm speaking with you, I'm already in orbit.
00:07:03:02 - 00:07:05:22
Patrick Michel
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they are very low. They don't attract well.
00:07:05:22 - 00:07:07:18
Abigail Acton
There's nothing holding you there.
00:07:07:19 - 00:07:26:05
Patrick Michel
Exactly. So we have to develop technologies at the lowest to come slowly and make sure we stay on the surface. And all these are very challenging. And it's exciting because we are having a project, different communities working together. Engineers from industries and scientists. And it's always, you know, a good thing to to work together.
00:07:26:07 - 00:07:43:20
Abigail Acton
Yeah, I know it sounds like an excellent melting pot. And I remember I think in a previous conversation we had, you were mentioning something about the images of an asteroid looking misleading, basically leading you to believe that there were certain characteristics that in reality were completely different. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? Because I love that story.
00:07:43:21 - 00:08:14:06
Patrick Michel
Yeah. And in fact the thing is, you know, the engineers, they have to start with assumptions in order to define the operation strategy when you get to an asteroid, and in fact, we don't know much about them because from the Earth we just received a faint light that comes from their surface. So, for instance, when we did the past missions like Hayabusa2 by the Japanese agency and the OSIRIS-REx by NASA, we told the engineers, you know, when we we land on the target asteroid, don't worry, we'll have large areas without borders.
00:08:14:08 - 00:08:30:19
Patrick Michel
And in fact, when we arrived, there were boulders everywhere. So this is funny because when it happens, the scientists are super excited because we like to be wrong. We are always happy, by the way, because when we are wrong, we have new challenges. And when we were right, we predicted correctly, right?
00:08:30:21 - 00:08:31:21
Abigail Acton
Yeah. Perfect win win.
00:08:32:02 - 00:08:51:16
Patrick Michel
Exactly. But the engineers looked at us and say, hey guys, you gave us wrong assumption. Now how are we going to land with so many boulders? So this is interesting because they have to be very flexible and be able to revise entirely their strategy of operations when they get to these new worlds, because each time it is a surprise.
00:08:51:16 - 00:08:53:12
Abigail Acton
In real time. Yeah. And what did you find with the boulders?
00:08:53:14 - 00:09:18:07
Patrick Michel
So in fact, what we found is that there are no basically no areas to land which are larger than ten meters wide. We said we would find spaces of 50m. So can you imagine that they had to command the spacecraft at 300,000,000km from Earth, so 1000 times the distance between the Earth and the moon, in order to be able to land in a ten meter space, which is absolutely incredible.
00:09:18:09 - 00:09:26:08
Abigail Acton
Yeah. No, it's absolutely amazing. And I'm going to steal your punchline. If I remember correctly, the boulders weren't boulders.
00:09:26:10 - 00:09:50:22
Patrick Michel
Yeah, exactly. So this is the thing, is that the response of these bodies to an external action cannot be predicted well, so far just by images, because with these missions, we stayed about two years around an asteroid. We have a lot of images, we see many boulders. And yet when we touch them, we see no reaction. Like, like like if we go in a in a fluid or in a collision less sense.
00:09:50:22 - 00:09:52:02
Abigail Acton
Or like, like mist.
00:09:52:08 - 00:10:11:13
Patrick Michel
Exactly. Like mist. Exactly. And this we could not really, predicted just from images. So the conclusion and the lessons learned is that at least for now, we need to have a direct interaction in order to determine the mechanical response of an asteroid, which is a very important for deflection, for instance.
00:10:11:13 - 00:10:13:20
Abigail Acton
If we have a need it for planetary defense.
00:10:13:23 - 00:10:14:16
Patrick Michel
Absolutely.
00:10:14:19 - 00:10:25:19
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Well, this is all really fascinating. Thank you so much for explaining it so clearly. And how will some of the innovations and some of the findings of your project be applied in forthcoming missions? Patrick.
00:10:25:20 - 00:10:46:09
Patrick Michel
Yeah, in fact, we are very lucky because we can immediately apply what we did in this project because we already used it for the DART mission that impacted on an asteroid. And now we launched the HERA mission by the European Space Agency that is going to reach this asteroid again in 2026. And all the tools we developed, some of the instruments are onboard this mission.
00:10:46:11 - 00:11:15:20
Patrick Michel
So we are really in the way of, of using them. In particular, there was a flyby of Mars recently on March 12th, and all the data we get from these images of Mars and its moon, Deimos, will be using our analysis tools. And then we have another mission in development thanks to this project, which is called the RAMSES mission, still at the European Space Agency, the space safety program that targets and asteroid called Apophis, that will come very close to the Earth with no danger at all, but just a great opportunity.
00:11:16:01 - 00:11:21:16
Patrick Michel
On Friday, April the 13th, 2029. And we are going to visit that.
00:11:21:18 - 00:11:36:06
Abigail Acton
Lovely, lovely Friday the 13th. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we'll hold you to what you just said about it being no danger at all. I'm sure all the calculations show that. Thank you so much, Patrick. That was beautifully explained. Wonderful. Does anyone have any questions for Patrick? Yes. Tomas.
00:11:36:11 - 00:11:49:11
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yeah. Thank you. So I'm outside the field, Patrick. And I'm sorry if I'm being, like, too simplistic. I'm just curious, do we have now any viable technology or system to actually deflect asteroids?
00:11:49:17 - 00:12:10:11
Patrick Michel
Yeah, absolutely. We have actually the technology that was demonstrated in real with a DART mission that showed that we are able to basically send a spacecraft at a very high speed, 60km per second on an asteroid for which we only know the size initially and not even the shape autonomously, so that it eats it. And that was successful.
00:12:10:16 - 00:12:35:20
Patrick Michel
The Dart spacecraft, 580kg, impacted at six kilometers per second a very small asteroid, only 150 meter in size successfully. And the goal of the Hera mission is to be the sort of a detective that go back to the impact scene in order to tell us what exactly happened, but at least the technology to hit at high speed and asteroid was demonstrated.
00:12:35:22 - 00:12:49:16
Patrick Michel
Of course, we need to develop other technology because one technique may be efficient for some cases. Other techniques may be more efficient in other cases. So it's just a starting point. But it's already very nice that the first test was successful.
00:12:49:18 - 00:13:14:22
Abigail Acton
Yeah. It's wonderful. It's like cosmic billiard balls. Cosmic snooker. Excellent. I'm always amazed by the precision. I just find that phenomenal. As someone who has problems reverse parking into a garage, I'm really impressed by the precision. Okay, I'm going to turn to Emilio now. Emilio, wildfires have been in the news recently, and occurrences look likely to rise given changes in land use and climate.
00:13:14:24 - 00:13:35:06
Abigail Acton
The FirEUrisk Project brought together researchers, planners and responders to find a way to assess and manage the risk of mega fires. So we know that climate change is going to make for more extreme weather patterns. Can you tell us a little bit about what the experts are thinking regarding the risk of what you call mega fires going forward, please, Emilio?
00:13:35:08 - 00:14:04:23
Emilio Chuvieco
Well, yeah, we have been observing in the last years that, the total burn area is not increasing globally, but the stream fires are increasing, and it's obviously related to the climatic and socioeconomic changes that we are observing, particularly the those factors that lead to extreme fire behavior and heat waves, strong winds, very dry vegetation and this is why we are finding accidents.
00:14:05:00 - 00:14:10:18
Emilio Chuvieco
I mean, asphalt is that are considered really important in terms of socially, ecologically impacts.
00:14:10:20 - 00:14:20:04
Abigail Acton
Yeah. And I mean, we can clearly understand the impact of the climate. When you talk about socio economic factors, what are you considering there, when it comes to risk?
00:14:20:04 - 00:14:49:00
Emilio Chuvieco
Well, the changes seen in land use, particularly in rural areas, have an important impact on fires because usually they are populations and working on the, the rural areas and doing for instance, extensive grazing. And nowadays most of these people are aging. Some there is having a strong abandon, on areas, particularly in Europe and therefore the landscape tend to be more homogeneous.
00:14:49:00 - 00:14:54:07
Emilio Chuvieco
And whenever you have a fire, they tend to propagate much more continuously than in the past.
00:14:54:10 - 00:15:10:08
Abigail Acton
Oh yeah. That's interesting. Right. Okay. Yes. I wasn't thinking of that when we were thinking of land use. I suppose I was imagining something else, but I see what you mean. People aren't husbanding the natural resources as they used to, and it's changing the profile. Yeah, I get you. Super. Okay, so what did FirEUrisk want to do?
00:15:10:11 - 00:15:42:12
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, we have a very large consortium of very different experts coming from different countries. And we want to analyze fire risk in a integrated way, considering not just meteorological data, which is what is mostly common by coring a fire risk assessment system, but also other aspects and related to vegetation, as I said, characteristics, but also human activities, ecological, values, ecosystems, services, people preparedness for for fire.
00:15:42:15 - 00:16:08:08
Emilio Chuvieco
So we aim to develop a holistic analysis or integrated analysis of fire risk conditions in different European areas. Usually fires were mostly a mediterranean problem, but nowadays we face also, fire issues in Central Europe and northern Europe. And also we aim to better understand how fire trends would evolve in the future, considering, again, climatic and socioeconomic changes.
00:16:08:13 - 00:16:17:24
Abigail Acton
Wonderful, excellent. And I know that you've been using Earth observation data as well to give you some clearer ideas. What is this observation data showing you? What what what does that used for?
00:16:18:01 - 00:16:48:24
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, well actually that's my main specialty. But we what we do is in doing a periodic observation of fuel conditions, in terms of both fuel abundance, I mean, the amount of vegetation that is able to be burned but also the moisture content, which is very important in terms of probability and also behavior. Also, we use satellite data to improve, let's say, updates, our current maps of wildland urban interfaces.
00:16:49:01 - 00:16:52:09
Emilio Chuvieco
I mean, those are the most important in terms of fire risk.
00:16:52:15 - 00:17:04:17
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Okay. So when you say, the fuel abundance, I get, you can tell from the satellite imagery what's growing there. But what did you mean about moisture content? How is satellite imagery telling you about the moisture of those plants? Down. Down on the earth?
00:17:04:22 - 00:17:22:07
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, well, actually, water, absorbs part of the electromagnetic radiation that comes from the sun. And it's reflected to the satellite also in thermal contrast between air and surface temperature is an indicator of of air moisture content and and water stress.
00:17:22:12 - 00:17:43:03
Abigail Acton
Yeah. So, so you can see where things are drying out and therefore obviously becoming more susceptible. And, so wonderful. This is the kind of data you collected and the people that were involved in that, but what were you actually, what tools did you develop? Did you develop anything that actually can be useful in, in keeping people safer and analyzing the, the, the risk of potential fires now?
00:17:43:05 - 00:17:45:02
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, we hope so. Of course.
00:17:45:04 - 00:17:46:21
Abigail Acton
Yeah.
00:17:46:23 - 00:18:21:07
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah. Very interesting to to help society to reduce the problems of fires. Now keep in mind that we have extreme fires in the last year with a lot of casualties. Recently California, also Hawaii, Chile, etc where more than a hundred people and died as a result of fires. So we aim to develop a more holistic and integrated approach to risk, to fire risk, considering different conditions that are not very commonly considered in the current fire assessment systems, particularly the vulnerability aspect, the exploitation of humans to fire.
00:18:21:08 - 00:18:50:20
Emilio Chuvieco
And also we aim to better understand how these etreme fires propagate, how we people can be better aware of their risk and related to fire. I think it's important to notice that in many fire prone areas, local citizens are not very aware of what is to do in case of having fire. I remember in, in Japan, I visited Japan a few years ago and everybody knows what to do in case of earthquake, but that's not the case in fire prone areas in the Mediterranean.
00:18:50:20 - 00:18:52:03
Emilio Chuvieco
That's part of the issue.
00:18:52:05 - 00:18:52:12
Abigail Acton
Right?
00:18:52:16 - 00:19:06:24
Emilio Chuvieco
For instance, in 2017, more than 60 people died trying to escape fire. Probably if they would have stayed in their places, they would be much less casualties. So I think we continue to inform also the population what to do in case.
00:19:06:24 - 00:19:17:17
Abigail Acton
Right. And do you have have you developed any kind of early warning tools or any mechanisms to assist, those who must perhaps launch evacuations or any tools at all?
00:19:17:19 - 00:19:51:22
Emilio Chuvieco
Well, just as I said, most of the current systems are based on meteorological data, which obviously are very important in terms of fire, particularly when, with humidity and in temperature models, so we we have added to those aspects other social aspect, ecological ecosystem services etc, so we tend to have a more comprehensive evaluation of risk that would facilitate a, better, more objective criteria in terms of a fire suppression.
00:19:51:24 - 00:19:59:13
Emilio Chuvieco
And we have put more emphasis on prevention than suppression, which has traditionally lead the the fire risk operational system.
00:19:59:13 - 00:20:10:14
Abigail Acton
Because I know you've also been considering sort of traditional use of the land. And of course, fires have always been with us. So I like this idea that you're not actually focusing that much on suppression, but it's more about management of risk, isn't it?
00:20:10:16 - 00:20:33:06
Emilio Chuvieco
Yes, yes. Actually, fire is a natural process that a lot of vegetation that is adapted to fire. And I think we need to live with fires and trying to use fires in a more efficient way, avoiding the negative impacts, but not suppression at all, because at the end of the day, when you suppresses more fires, you make large ones, in, in a longer period.
00:20:33:06 - 00:20:36:16
Emilio Chuvieco
And therefore they could be more extreme than they used to.
00:20:36:18 - 00:20:57:15
Abigail Acton
Okay. That's excellent. Thank you. Very very clear. Okay. Super. So a better, broader, more accurate picture that gives the people who are charged with keeping people safe a clearer idea of what the risks are and, and how to get out of a situation if it evolves. Super. Thank you so much. Does anyone have any questions at all? Yes.
00:20:57:15 - 00:20:58:24
Abigail Acton
Patrick, please.
00:20:59:01 - 00:21:11:06
Patrick Michel
Yeah I mean this is very interesting. I have a question about. So you look at the conditions, that may trigger fire, but are the fires mostly voluntary or accidents?
00:21:11:06 - 00:21:36:15
Emilio Chuvieco
Both actually. I think human aspects are very important in fighting nation and and propagation. We humans have bought a factor, a factor of fire occurrence, but also they are affected by fires, of course. So in Europe, for instance, I would say 90% of the fires are human caused and lighting is also an important issue. Sometimes lighting creates larger fires because they occur in remote locations.
00:21:36:17 - 00:22:05:15
Emilio Chuvieco
But fire ignited by humans is also a very important aspect. Not just say obviously arson incident which is there, but mostly accidents and fires that tend to manage, say grass or traps, and therefore they escape out of control and became large events. So there's a really wide diversity of factors related to fire. And I think a sociological analysis of fires, it's also something that has not been previously much.
00:22:05:16 - 00:22:30:13
Abigail Acton
And that's what your project's changing. You're looking at stuff that goes just beyond the weather conditions. Right. Super. Well, thank you for explaining that so clearly. And it sounds very much like your work is needed, because I don't think the situation is going to get better. Thank you. Tomas, turning to you, first, detection and unequivocal identification of chemical hazards at low concentrations in gas and in liquid phase in multiple environments.
00:22:30:15 - 00:22:47:02
Abigail Acton
The SERSing project has developed a device to help first responders deal with chemical threats. So, Tomas, can you tell us a little bit about surface enhanced Raman spectroscopy? Spectroscopy? I did it the second time. What is it and how does it work?
00:22:47:04 - 00:23:12:09
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yes. Okay. So maybe it's simply with split sort of service enhanced spectroscopy into parts for simplicity. So let's begin with the Raman spectroscopy. So many people have heard this before. Raman spectroscopy is is a well known actually, quite old analytical technique that is essentially used to characterize and identify, like analysis, unknown material. Right.
00:23:12:09 - 00:23:35:20
Tomas Rindzevicius
That's why is so useful in forensic science, material science and basically in many, many disciplines, now the way it works is typically you have a laser, you shine laser like our case, some unknown molecules, and then the molecules scatter light. And then molecules are a little bit like people in the sense, you know, we have our fingerprints to identify who we are.
00:23:35:22 - 00:23:55:23
Tomas Rindzevicius
And molecules have what we call a vibrational spectral fingerprint. This is how we identify the molecule. So, you know, so let's say if I have a, say a pill of aspirin, I can use a Raman spectrometer to tell me that, yes, this is indeed aspirin. I just looked at its spectral fingerprints, and I can confirm this is aspirin.
00:23:56:00 - 00:24:18:19
Tomas Rindzevicius
This is not, you know, say, paracetamol or something else. Right. So that's the sort of fragment spectroscopy part. So now imagine we have a slightly more challenging situation. So imagine I have a glass of water and I will take from my previous example just a tiny bit of aspirin. And I add to this glass water. And as it desolves in the glass of water.
00:24:18:19 - 00:24:38:08
Tomas Rindzevicius
Now we have a situation what we call trace amounts of aspirin. Now if I take a Raman spectrometer and sort of try to measure it, it would tell me, well, I see water and like, are you sure? I've just had a tiny amount of aspirin in. Yeah, I just see water. So you see this is a limitation of the spectrometer .
00:24:38:10 - 00:25:00:17
Tomas Rindzevicius
This is where surface enhanced part comes in. This is where we use surface just like in the name. To enhance the Raman signal. Sort of boosting it's many orders of magnitude. This is where we sort of able to like I think like a hollow pillowy like a curtain, this water aside and sort of look, look deep inside, see what else is hiding.
00:25:00:21 - 00:25:08:07
Tomas Rindzevicius
And that's the part. So this enhanced Raman spectroscopy. So we're able to look find trace amounts of compound.
00:25:08:10 - 00:25:21:18
Abigail Acton
Yeah that's beautifully explained. Thank you so much. Excellent explanation. Now how did you feel when you realized how powerfully the boosting factor was and how tiny, tiny amounts of trace was actually showing up? It must have been quite exciting when you first realized that.
00:25:21:24 - 00:25:42:19
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yes, yes, it was, you know, we're always very excited to be able to detect as small amounts of possible, even though during the project, we've realized that the real life samples, it knows, just like in my example, glass of water plus aspirin, like typically imagine you have a way more complicated cases. You have a glass of wine.
00:25:42:21 - 00:26:08:22
Tomas Rindzevicius
Okay, now we just have so many of different types of molecules in there. And if you were measuring so, you know, each of them sending their fingerprints. So you're sort of overwhelmed with these fingerprints. Well now this is where AI comes in to arena. You know, this is where we now surprisingly able to train AI to quickly sort these fingerprints and sort of group them together and we can tell them what we are interested to find.
00:26:08:22 - 00:26:14:11
Tomas Rindzevicius
And they will and AI will help us to quickly pinpoint the molecules that we actually want to find.
00:26:14:13 - 00:26:34:18
Abigail Acton
Brilliant, brilliant. And I mean, yes, all of this power, but also what I think is thrilling about your project is that you managed to develop a small, lightweight, very compact device that could be held by first responders. So all of this power, but in a compact little device. Can you tell me more about the actual device that the project developed?
00:26:34:21 - 00:27:21:06
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yes. So, you know, handheld Raman spectrometers, are actually quite common. So first responders do use them in their everyday work, but not the surface enhanced part. It's that we added, together with the artificial intelligence and deep learning algorithms so that the, our tiny sort of prototype had basically, you know, big red bottom. And the first I had to just put a sample, press that red button, and then it would analyze and on the screen you would get sort of an answer and it was all possible because we had artificial intelligence basically looking like a detective through all these complex matrix, you know, real life samples that have many types of different molecules.
00:27:21:11 - 00:27:36:01
Tomas Rindzevicius
So as a detective, it's finds what we look for, and then you get the answer on your screen. And we were able to actually shrink it quite significantly, connect to cloud and add some more interesting features.
00:27:36:03 - 00:27:44:23
Abigail Acton
And and the benefit of collecting it to the cloud was what, so that the data could get back to people who would then be responsible for deciding what what to do with the environment in that context.
00:27:45:00 - 00:28:17:08
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yeah, I mean exactly. So imagine you, you're measuring, say, fluid on a field. Well, then maybe you need the experts sitting somewhere else to actually look at the data. Maybe you don't rest completely your AI algorithms here. Or maybe you say you want to measure gas and the way that it's spreading in the field. So maybe you would like a data from sensors in different locations, you know, to come to a centralized place where people could visualize on the map how the, the, the cloud is spread.
00:28:17:12 - 00:28:28:12
Abigail Acton
Okay. And I know that one of the breakthroughs for you, a major milestone was the detection of, Novichok in various mixtures. Yeah. So, for example, can you tell me a little bit more about that? How precisely were you able to measure that.
00:28:28:17 - 00:28:54:17
Tomas Rindzevicius
Yeah, this is interesting story. You know, back in 2018 when we sort of wrote this, this artificial intelligence for spectroscopy, you could hear just whispers and definitely you couldn't hear much about, you know, warfare. We could only imagine potentially terrorist attacks. But then as time progressed and because of the war in Ukraine, we thought that it would be really relevant to test the technology, put it to a real test.
00:28:54:23 - 00:29:17:06
Tomas Rindzevicius
And also we tried to conflict the scenario that someone you know wants to poison or add Novichok to liquids that people use in everyday life, say, you know, spray or mouthwash or anything that you use on every day. And they thought, okay, this would be a good test. We take our own chalk, we add to it, and we see and we were a little bit skeptical.
00:29:17:08 - 00:29:44:07
Tomas Rindzevicius
We thought that maybe we see, we were over optimistic. But actually this is where artificial intelligence really surprised us. It was incredibly fast and really better than all, previously used methods. So I'm really, optimistic about the future. So we're able to detect, for example, Novichok in nasal spray, several orders of mind lower than it's possible with conventional serum spectroscopy.
00:29:44:09 - 00:29:59:20
Abigail Acton
Right. Excellent. Okay. Super. Thank you. Good technology to have, final question for you, Tomas. Can you see a way that your technology could be used in the future? Are there other developments as AI gets stronger and you bring the two together? What what do you see for the future?
00:29:59:22 - 00:30:23:15
Tomas Rindzevicius
Well, I mean, I can't imagine now, you know, AI being outside the picture in spectroscopy because it performs so well. I, I think we definitely going to see AI entering all types of analytical tools. And then I want to talk about source. Definitely. And as Raman in his field, you know develops the tools industry are getting smaller, cheaper, better.
00:30:23:17 - 00:30:47:03
Tomas Rindzevicius
Now we have AI you know working for us this very powerful tool that can analyze the data quickly and help us to sort out all these components, you know, in the real life fluids. I think that you will see in the future definitely tools that AI will be embedded in it without any question. Yeah. And maybe even inside your mobile one day.
00:30:47:03 - 00:30:47:13
Tomas Rindzevicius
Right.
00:30:47:13 - 00:30:59:04
Abigail Acton
Well. So ubiquitous. Well, yeah. No, I mean, we have to think blue sky, don't we? Yeah. Yes. Excellent. Thank you so much. So basically, the limit is only our imagination. Does anyone have any questions for Tomas? Yes. Patrick, please.
00:30:59:08 - 00:31:21:24
Patrick Michel
Yeah, actually a comment, where this could be very useful. So we actually have a raman spectrometer onboard a rover called Idefix developed by the KNESS and the French space Agency and the Geological Space Agency that would be onboard the next mission by the Japanese space agency that is going to take a sample of Phobos, one of the moons of Mars, to return it to Earth.
00:31:21:24 - 00:31:35:15
Patrick Michel
And before doing so, they will deploy a rover on the surface of Phobos. The rover will rove very slowly, and it has a Raman spectrometer to do elemental analysis of the surface of Phobos. So this is where I think, you know, very powerful.
00:31:35:15 - 00:31:39:17
Tomas Rindzevicius
Thank you very much. Oh, this is so nice to hear, Patrick. Thank you.
00:31:39:19 - 00:31:57:07
Abigail Acton
Yeah. Did you see the reinforcement of the direction you're going in, Tomas. But also Patrick, it sounds like his equipment is more sophisticated than the usual ones. So you said basic analysis. You know, you never know. Tomas might actually be able to help you with something a little bit more than basic. Anyway, this is what's so wonderful about CORDIScovery.
00:31:57:07 - 00:32:00:10
Abigail Acton
It's the synergies. Yes. Emilio, you have a question?
00:32:00:12 - 00:32:19:14
Emilio Chuvieco
Yeah, well, I have a general comment about the use of artificial intelligence. Sometimes I have the impression that you say is being used as a tool to a classified data, but sometimes the scientific basis to understand properly the problem is not that clear. What is your impression on that?
00:32:19:16 - 00:32:43:10
Tomas Rindzevicius
Well, I think, Emilio you are right on the money here. I mean when. So the algorithms in this project were developed by D2 computer technological university of Denmark. And actually, you're right, often when we ask them why the decision in certain cases by AI is made, the researchers actually say, we're not sure, we have to look into it.
00:32:43:10 - 00:33:11:11
Tomas Rindzevicius
We have to dig deeper. So actually, you're right. We see that it works. But actually, why in many cases it's not really clear. Even experts have to, you know, launch a special analysis activities to to find out why certain decisions were made, why it was classified, you know, as this type or that type. Because when you look at the spectrum, it's not obvious why the decision was made.
00:33:11:16 - 00:33:30:06
Abigail Acton
Like like all science, it raises more questions than it answered. On to the next chapter. And the next chapter. Okay. Listen, thank you so much. The three of you. That was fascinating. And and, clearly the the technological advances you're all coming up with are, are helping us to remain safer, for which many thanks.
00:33:30:12 - 00:33:32:24
Tomas Rindzevicius
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
00:33:32:24 - 00:33:33:23
Patrick Michel
Thank you so much, all of you.
00:33:33:23 - 00:33:35:04
Emilio Chuvieco
Thank you. Right. Take care.
00:33:35:04 - 00:33:36:18
Tomas Rindzevicius
Bye bye. Bye bye.
00:33:36:20 - 00:33:58:09
Abigail Acton
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00:33:58:11 - 00:34:18:03
Abigail Acton
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00:34:18:04 - 00:34:37:21
Abigail Acton
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Innovative approaches to some of today’s threats
A better understanding of asteroids to improve our planetary defence systems, finding out what contributes to wild, mega-fires to improve our risk assessments, and developing accurate, small sensors that can detect and identify liquid chemical hazards at low concentrations – today’s guests have used EU research funding to develop innovative approaches to improve safety. What can surface-enhanced Raman spectroscopy tell us about the presence of novichok? How can we improve our understanding of how asteroids respond to the tactics we may need to deploy for planetary defence? And as incidences of wildfires grow, how can Europe’s response be more effective? Listen on to hear the answers to these and many other key questions. Joining us for this episode are: Patrick Michel(opens in new window), a director of Research at the French National Centre for Scientific Research in the Côte d’Azur Observatory(opens in new window) in Nice. He is involved in space missions to asteroids, for both science and planetary defence purposes and is the principal investigator of the European Space Agency’s Hera mission(opens in new window), which contributes to the first asteroid deflection test through NASA’s DART mission(opens in new window). Michel led the NEO-MAPP project. Emilio Chuvieco(opens in new window), who is a professor of Geography and director of the Environmental Ethics chair at the University of Alcalá(opens in new window), Spain. He is an elected member of the Spanish Academy of Sciences, and his main interest is the use of Earth Observation data to monitor environmental problems, particularly forest fires, which he explored through the FirEUrisk project. Tomas Rindzevicius(opens in new window), a senior researcher in the Department of Health Technology, Drug Delivery and Sensing(opens in new window), at the Technical University of Denmark, and coordinator of the SERSing project. He focuses on the application of nanomaterials for sensing applications which can detect trace amounts of explosives, toxic industrial chemicals, as well as chemical warfare agents.
Happy to hear from you!
If you have any feedback, we’re always happy to hear from you! Send us any comments, questions or suggestions to: editorial@cordis.europa.eu.
Keywords
SERSing, trace, explosives, toxic industrial chemicals, chemical warfare agents, surface-enhanced Raman spectroscopy, FirEUrisk, wildfires, Earth Observation data, environmental problems, NEO-MAPP, asteroid, deflection, planetary defence